Vonnie Estes, PMA:
Welcome to PMA Takes on Tech, the podcast that explores the problems, solutions, people, and ideas that are shaping the future of the produce industry. I'm your host, Vonnie Estes, Vice President of Technology for the Produce Marketing Association and I've spent years in the AG tech sector. So I can attest, it's hard to navigate this ever changing world in developing and adopting new solutions to industry problems. Thanks for joining us and for allowing us to serve as your guide to the new world of produce and technology. My goal of the podcast is to outline a problem in the produce industry and then discuss several possible solutions that can be deployed today.
Vonnie Estes, PMA:
This season of PMA Takes on Tech is brought to you by Plenty. Plenty is an indoor vertical farm that sustainably grows produce using less water and land than traditional farming and no pesticides or GMOs. The farm is able to grow peak season flavorful food year round and deliver fresh produce to its retail partners daily. Plenty's proprietary towers and intelligent platform make it the only vertical farm that can grow multiple crops with consistently superior flavors and yield.
Vonnie Estes, PMA:
Today, we dive deep into genetics and CEA. I talked to Mohammed Oufattole, the newly named Chief Technology Officer at Revol Greens. Revol Greens is a CEA lettuce producer with locations in Minnesota, California, Texas, and Georgia. Their growth goal is to supply greens to the continental US customer within 24 hours of harvest. The company is showing its commitment to breeding and technology by hiring Mo. He brings over 20 years of experience in life sciences and agricultural biotechnology research. He led a broad range of crop improvement applications and multiple R&D programs at both Benson Hill, for six years, and at Monsanto for 10 years prior. It was great to hear about his commitment to breeding and CEA. A self-proclaimed early CEA skeptic as Mo learned more about the improvements in cost structure and also the possible gains to be made through breeding he is now a CEA enthusiast. Let's join the conversation as Mo talks about his background. Tell me about your background and your current role.
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
Yeah, absolutely. I'm a molecular biologist by training. I did a PhD in Belgium and moved to Washington State University where I did a post-doc there working on cell biology. Throughout my career, since I joined Monsanto back in 2006 and later on with Benson Hill, I really had the opportunity to work in roles that span the whole gambit of crop improvements, particularly at the genetics side, but also the interaction of the genetics with the environment. With Benson Hill the other layer that also was really fascinating is really add the components of the data and the AI application to understanding really how the genetics interacts with its environments and how the varieties... Now, how do you pick varieties for a specific environment? Because at that time we're working with field crops, and so you have to adapt your crop to the environment rather than adapt the environment to the crop.
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
And so that was one very fascinating angle of really a... I think the improvements really that has taken place over the last few years in certain technologies, in the machine learning approaches and data analytics really stepped up the game in terms of how you look at crop improvements. So, those are the ranks that I come from. As opposed to, I guess, many in the industry of the CEA I come from a genetics rank. So I come from understanding of the variety and all that, and how other components affect it. And I do believe that there is a substantially important to that in the field.
Vonnie Estes, PMA:
So how did you get interested in CEA? I mean, that's kind of... I know both Benson Hill and Monsanto are much more row crop oriented, and so how did you kind of make that jump and what made you interested it?
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
Yeah, I think it's a fascinating move. I got exposed deeply to the industry about maybe two, three years ago. Started working as part of the consortium called, you may be familiar with it, precision indoor plants.
Vonnie Estes, PMA:
Yes. Oh yeah. I forgot Benson Hill was part of that. Right.
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
That is correct. It's part of the foundation for food and agriculture that's funded by Congress and it requires matching funds from the industry, so Benson Hill was part of it. So I was representing Benson Hill on the executive committee of the consortium. And in a really... The idea is that we, as the industry, come together to really think about topics that are really far fetching looking far down the road into what can be possible with the new technologies, but also develop new technologies for crop improvement. And in this case, within PIP, it's really around the indoor growing discovery and building of the knowledge. And that's really the fascinating part of about it is that you are bringing together a number of technologies from a variety of different areas from a genetic standpoint, from computer vision to the understanding of the biochemistry for when you're talking about flavor compounds and all those things. All the way to robotics and data, data analytics aspect of it.
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
And I think that amalgamation of the different technologies just adds one interesting component to it. And I love the fact also that I'm in a... I was one of the skeptics early on about really how these could work broadly speaking beyond being just a niche of consumers, if you will. But it turned out to be that the technologies today are allowing actually the cost to come substantially from the lighting and things like that. I have a completely different view today than I had two or three years ago. And so that's how really I got interested into the space.
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
And as I look into it a little further, I think that the attractive nature of it, it goes beyond everything I'd imagined it before. Here at Revol Greens in glass houses and on ponds we're able to... From a sustainability perspective, there's no match to it. I think we're estimating 90% less water used for [crosstalk 00:09:05]. For the same crop than you would do in the field, for example.
Vonnie Estes, PMA:
Wow.
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
There is no other growing in agriculture conditions where you can do that. 90% less water. Not only that, but you can set this thing up anywhere. For decades, we've been hearing about how erpdoble land is shrinking, and it's becoming very problematic from that perspective, but also on the climate side of things. But-
Vonnie Estes, PMA:
Well, you're in California today, as we were talking about. I'm sure you've seen all the signs in the central valley about the water shortage and there's... You definitely see that where you are today. That we have to do this with less water.
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
We definitely see that in here. And if I drive around and I see crops that are being irrigated with lots of water it's essentially some of it goes to the crop, a lot gets wasted. And so I think that's one of the huge, attractive aspects of the CEA. I think the other piece also is the maximization of the footprint that you're using. We're seeding, harvesting every single day of the year, year round. It's not a two season crop. It's not even a three season crop. It's every single day. So for whatever footprint you have of the land, you're using it maximally. We can grow... We have greenhouses out in Minnesota. We can grow in January where it's -30, -40. We can grow in summer. So there's no limitation to where you can grow. There is no limitation to how much you can grow or how often. And so I think it adds up to the activeness part of it.
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
Food safety is another aspect that I think really comes to the forefront as we hear a lot about the food recalls and all that. When it comes to lettuce, for example, a lot of that is essentially irrigation, water. At least based on all indication. And because we can control everything indoor we control... When we bring in the water, it gets sterilized. There are techniques to sterilize water, so everything that comes in essentially into the pond is tested, is sterilized, it gets tested on a regular basis. We test the crop before it gets out. And so you have as much control as you can. You are limiting your risk substantially compared to what you were doing in the field.
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
Those are really the major parts that attracted me to the field. I think that the third components, the sustainability of safety and really the ability to focus on consumer traits, this is really closer to my heart because I'm a crop geneticist and all that. One of the challenges with growing crops in the field is you want to address the challenges of the field. That means the stresses of the heat, the cold, you name it. And those are the traits in your breeding program you have to prioritize before you start thinking about flavor, taste, aroma, you name it, nutrition. And sometimes you have to make tradeoffs. You have one or the other. You can't have two or three. And in these cases, if you don't have the challenges with stresses and disease pressure and all the things you face in the field, then you don't have... Then you can actually focus on packaging the genetics that is more around the consumer. What consumer really want.
Vonnie Estes, PMA:
Let's talk about that a little bit more. I love that. What are you focusing on and what kind of tools are you using? I mean, you come with such a great background of using all different kinds of tools, tools maybe that may be a little more accepted in some of the commodity crops than they are in produce, but what are you looking at as far as consumer traits?
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
I think the nutritional aspect of it, looking at vitamins, looking at minerals, and then there is the flavor, the taste part of it. There are by chemical pathways that you can look for varieties or genetics that has better taste, better flavor. You can bring that into the genetics. And this is something that I'm trying to map out right now working in partnership with seed companies and all that. And trying to figure out whether this is something we want to do on our own, or do it with somebody else. I think we're big on partnerships. We'd rather do it with somebody.
Vonnie Estes, PMA:
Oh, good.
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
But I think that the industry is a little bit, right now, not really fully committed. And I've talked about seed industry to the indoor, because nobody's really breeding specifically for the indoor. Even those who say they do, they're not doing it really the right way. [crosstalk 00:15:34]
Vonnie Estes, PMA:
Ah. But do you think you'll end up having to build your own program around that? Or how are you looking at it?
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
I'd rather not. So I think-
Vonnie Estes, PMA:
It's a lot of work and a lot of people, right?
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
I don't think it's... I don't think it is. To be honest when you think about today with technology that exists that you can start a breeding a program from scratch and bring varieties from seed banks and everything. And within three, four years, especially in crops we're talking about, the leafy greens and all that, in three years you could get a variety out with the characteristics that you want. But again, I don't want to focus on that. I want to focus on getting the product that our consumers want first and hopefully find somebody to work with to do this. But if [crosstalk 00:16:37] don't, that is the... It's definitely on the table for us.
Vonnie Estes, PMA:
Interesting. So, I think there's probably a number of people out there that don't know about Revol Greens and what you grow and where you're located and that type of thing. So if you could just give us a background on the company, that'd be great.
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
Oh, absolutely. Revol Greens started in 2017 on a two acres and a half out in Minnesota, just outside of Minneapolis. Some of the co-founders have been doing, working on the CEA for as far as I could... They can remember. So I think the art of growing indoor has been really perfected within the company before even the company started. And I think the one thing that attracted me to the company too is kind of the way they look at things they had. The way they are thinking about how to take the company mainstream across the US. And what I mean by that, that two acres and a half has grown into 10 in Minnesota. And there is plans to grow more into more acres over the next year or so.
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
We've got a site now where I'm here in California, just two hours north of LA, where we are producing an operation on 16 acres. The facility has the capacity to grow up to 64. We're about to start renovating the next 16 acres essentially to get it to 32. And then just a couple of months ago we made an acquisition outside of Athens, Georgia that's already kind of servicing the Southeast and so that's a third site that's going to grow. We're thinking about the next year growing, expanding it. Right now, it's on a five acre. That's going to expand to 20 and then 40 later. Texas, we're about to start construction. We've got the plans already in place for a site. That'll start at 20 acres and grow ultimately into 100 acres over time. That's where we are going to place the R&D site. Potentially the headquarters will move into that as well.
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
And so those are four locations spread across the country. As you can tell, there is intention to add at least a couple more sites in other places where we're not operational today, or we don't have sales. Really the goal is to be located such that you can reach every single household within 24 hours from harvest to putting it on a shelf. And that's really the mindset that really attracted me to Revol Greens. Go big. Making a healthy green and sustainable food available to every household is not a small feat.
Vonnie Estes, PMA:
No. Not at all. And I think it's interesting from a branding perspective. You use your own brand, right? You don't use store brands, you use a private-
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
We actually... We do both. We do private label for some of our customers, but we have our own brand.
Vonnie Estes, PMA:
I think it's hard as a consumer to go in and kind of figure out the space. When I go in and I look at the store and I'm like, "Where are these from? And who grew this?" And so I think... And they're so regional. If you can do that local, but national, I think that's a really interesting model that you have. And what's your funding? How are you funded and where are you in that space?
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
Yeah. We are funded primarily through Equilibrium. So they funded a lot of... Most of all our greenhouses and funded lot of the work that has been going on so far. So from that standpoint, I think we've been lucky really to have them on our side. And I think we've got a really good relationship with them. They really buy into our strategy of going big, but also being differentiated enough. One of the things that also differentiates the company is that we're not just focusing on the easy to grow kind of baby spring mix or things like that. We're tackling some of the challenges in spinach. Growing spinach, basil [crosstalk 00:22:39], kale, close to 18 different crops essentially.
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
And so that's... It's not easy growing spinach on a hydroponic. Everybody knows how difficult that is. And we have I think the innovation mindset that is also the company has really kind of sealed the deal for me is we've got some really recipes that we're able to grow spinach with no problem. That's actually being about to be implemented right now. It's been in optimization for some time. So being a... I think that's really the differentiation also we're offering. Just a larger spread and different skews, if you will.
Vonnie Estes, PMA:
Yeah. And how do you look? I mean, your role is going to be to bring even more new products and differentiation. And so if you... You said earlier it might take a short period of time, but if you said... If you came in right now and you said, "Okay, I'm going to develop something that has higher nutrition and better flavor," how long do you think it would take before you could get that to market?
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
I think in three to four years you could get new varieties with the traits that you're looking for. Essentially what you have to do is you got to go back to your gene banks. Some of the... So my experience with Benson Hill, for example the soybean is well-known crop, right? But if you look at commodity crop, it's lost all the genes that had to do with the protein. The protein has been going down for many, many years because as yields are going up, protein is going down. And the genetics that actually drives the level of protein gets lost, so you don't find it in many of the varieties outside of Benson Hill does have some of those products. But you would find those in some germplasms in gene banks that have been put aside because they were not yielding.
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
And so people cannot fill out, put them on the side, but the technology didn't exist at the time to delineate the protein from yield. And sometimes it's just because people didn't look the technology to measure protein in every cycle of crossing. Just it was not easy to get ahold of, or not at least not at a cost effective. And so you didn't measure the protein, you just measured yield because you see. And so over time, if you don't measure it, you don't get it you measure. So measure yield, you'd get in yield. You're present protein and a very similar thing. You can look across every crop there is a similar trend. Tomato, you go to the old varieties, they have the heirloom and things like that. That's where the flavor and taste still exists. The new varieties, they are shiny and red, beautiful, but they don't just nearly as much. The genetic is there. It's just it's not in the right germplasm today.
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
So you can go back. You can go back, essentially bring those back and then cross them and develop. If you have genetics already, commercial genetics today, it will be a much shorter time because all you need to do is basically bring those traits from all the varieties into your commercial chassis, if you will. If you don't, that's not a deal breaker. I think you can build that genetic. And for small crops, like we talk about for the greens, you can do that in a much shorter amount of time. One of the aspects too, with these crops, these crops have not been developed to begin with, let alone for indoor grow.
Vonnie Estes, PMA:
Yeah. No, no one has spent the amount of time mapping everything out like they have corn and soy. Right?
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
Exactly. Not a lot of money has, from a research and development standpoint, has gone into it. And so the ability to take something from scratch and move it to where you are not just competitive but at least if you focus on traits that people have not focused on before, such as consumer traits, that I think you have the opportunity to move the needle on that much faster than you would do in a soybean or corn, for example. And then if you take it to the next step where you're thinking, "I'm going to develop it actually for a CEA environment, not for the field," then you can see where you can make substantial jumps there. Versus if you if you're looking at developing it for the field and having all these other consumer traits that you wanted to develop. And so that's really the beauty of it.
Vonnie Estes, PMA:
So there are those in the industry who think that genetics don't matter, and that it's all environment. So in the genetics by environment equation, that an indoor environment is everything and genetics don't matter at all. I disagree with that, and it sounds like you can kind of do too, but how do you... How far can we push... Let me ask a different way. How much do we know about the environment and how far we've pushed these crops from an environmental point of view and a lighting and a water and all the other things we can make a recipe out of before we go to genetics? Or should we do genetics first, environment second? Or how do you look at it as, as you look at that equation?
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
I think all those things really add value. Ultimately you want all those elements to come together, but I am totally on the side of genetics has to be at the heart of it. The light, everything, the environment, the lighting, everything you want is essential, but you got to start from the genetics, because there's only so much you can push the genetics through artificial lighting and controlling the heck out of temperature and everything, and the environment around it. Nutrition and all that. But if it's not in the genetics, it's not in the genetics. That's just as simple as that.
Vonnie Estes, PMA:
You can't develop a pathway that doesn't exist by using a different light necessarily. Right?
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
You got it. And I think the example that I provided earlier, when you take a... Which is the case today. A lot of... Almost everything that's been developed today in the space been developed for the field. What you are trying to do in the field, as a breeder, you are going to prioritize the things that are going to make your crop survive first. It's got to survive. If it tastes good and all that, it doesn't survive, it doesn't matter. Right? And so if you prioritize that, you prioritize the disease genetics and all that, what you are doing, you're compromising. You're not actually moving other things that have to do with everything that has consumer needs essentially. From a nutrition to taste and everything. So that number one.
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
And so what people need to realize is there is a concept in breeding that's called linkage. Linkage drug. That means if I'm taking... Sometimes you may want to... You absolutely have to have this disease QTL or gene and if you have that, you have something attached to it that is either... Has to do either with not a good taste, maybe an off flavor type of compound, or dry yield, dry... It's slowing down the yield or something like that. And so if you take one, A, you're not getting B. Especially if they are very close on your chromosomes. And, so in a case where I don't have to worry about that specific disease, because it's a field disease, doesn't happen in-house or a stress, I'm going to prioritize B. I'm not getting A, but I don't want it. I don't need it. That's really I think how hopefully that paints the picture of the importance of genetics, what you can do with genetics to drive. Whether it's yield. Maximize your footprint on your system. Whether it's a pond or vertical or... And all the way to other traits that are important to consumers.
Vonnie Estes, PMA:
Well, my last question, just broadening out a little bit, so stepping back from CEA specific, you've been working in Ag tech, as have I, before it was even called Ag tech. And you were at Monsanto as we talked about Benson Hill. So just looking across your career to date, what technologies have progressed faster than you expected, and which will ones haven't? And within breeding and outside breeding as well. And what do you feel like is still missing?
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
Yeah, I think some of the technologies that have moved really fast via the genome editing is definitely something that just five, maybe five, eight years ago you barely hear about it. And it's like one of those things that is way out there, there's no way this is going to work in a foreseeable future. And all of a sudden now you got so many companies and startups around it, and it's making tremendous progress on the healthcare side of things with some of the trials on a variety of different diseases and things like that. And in crops, it's also a technology that is likely to make significant improvement to the quality and taste of the crops. I think one of the things I just mentioned earlier on the linkage, genetic linkage, when you got a bad gene linked closer to a good one, if you do that through breeding, you're not going to be able... You're taking the whole package. You're not going to take one and leave the other. But through genome editing, you can. You can actually-
Vonnie Estes, PMA:
Do you see a place for genome editing in produce? I talk to a lot of people that are starting to look at it or retailers are afraid of it. How do you think that's going to play out in the markets that you're working in now and the use of genome editing?
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
You know, I think that's a question that it's yet to be figured out I think. I think it's going to come down to consumer perception and all that. And at the end of the day, consumer is... The customer is king, as they say, right? But my feeling is that I think the technology in the past has been used in ways that really didn't benefit the consumer. Technologies in AG whether it's biotech or... And people didn't see the purpose of it. But the hope is that if you are now using a technology that can actually bring back the nutrition into our food and bring back the taste and flavor can that changed the minds? And honestly, that's a question to be... That's something to be seen as we go forward.
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
But what I do know is that it's definitely going to make a significant difference in our food system if the technology is able to get past the hurdles of perception. And so we'll see. Right now I think there's a lot to be done through breeding by itself, just again, because some of these crops really still have a lot of the genetics that's sitting in shelves in gene banks that hasn't been used or put away because they didn't yield well in the field. And if you go back to it and brain you can definitely make significant changes there with, or without genome editing. But I do think that genome editing can speed up that process and get some... Some of the traits, it might be the only answer to it.
Vonnie Estes, PMA:
Yeah. What about any technologies that you thought at one point, "Boy, this is going to really make a difference," and then they didn't really work out? Anything over your career like that, that you've seen?
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
You know, I don't know that there is a technology that really didn't. I think people can argue with GMO did or didn't clearly. All I can say about that is when you look at corn and soybean, 80% to 90% is GMO in the US today. What does that tell you? [crosstalk 00:38:51] tell you, the farmer does like the technology. It works for them. It doesn't work for the consumer because they don't see the prices really coming down. You wouldn't know. If we didn't have that, maybe the prices would be astronomical today. But you wouldn't know. You don't have a control.
Vonnie Estes, PMA:
Yeah, exactly.
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
That's one. And outside of that, as a consumer, I'm not getting any... Does it taste better now? So, because again, the focus was on the farm. Is farm productivity. It wasn't on the consumer. And so there is definitely huge successes in that space that unfortunately the perception didn't go along and that's fine. I think sometimes that's how life goes. Technologies come and go, but I don't know that there is a technology that came and completely failed. I think every single thing, every time you... There's a stepping stone at everything. What is really, really cool now is the ability to put all that thing together and from a data aspect to genetics, to physiology, to computer vision. And bringing that together in a way that you can analyze it live, you can look at it back over time, or even prediction in the future around your harvest, around your timing of the year. Things like that is just, it's just really fascinating.
Vonnie Estes, PMA:
Yeah. There's just so many tools that we can use now that are pretty amazing and how they're going together. And I think sometimes it's like a circle. When I look at some of the technologies I've worked on, I worked in bio controls the early part of my career, and they didn't work very well. I can see why people didn't adopt them because they didn't work very well. But now for lots of reasons we have better ways of testing them. We have better ways applying them through precision application. So now it's... I think it's bio controls time and I think some of the technologies, that's just kind of how they go. It's to a circle and you have to develop other things around it. So it'll be interesting.
Vonnie Estes, PMA:
I think with genome editing we're... Consumers have competing interests. We have to adapt to climate change. We have to. We have to use less water. We have to have less food waste. There's a lot of consumer interests that compete with, "I don't want to use that technology." And so I think you'll be in a good position. We'll have to talk in five years to see what you decided for your company makes sense. Because you have all competing interests of consumers and genome editing might be the way best way to solve that. And consumers may embrace that. We'll just have to see where that goes. Right?
Mohammed Oufattole, Revol Greens:
Yep. Yep.
Vonnie Estes, PMA:
Yeah. Well, thank you very much for your time. This has been a great conversation and I look forward to watching your career and what you do and make an impact on CEA. So, thank you.
Vonnie Estes, PMA:
That's it for this episode of PMA Takes on Tech. Thanks for allowing us to serve as your guide to the new world of produce and technology. Be sure to check out all our episodes at pma.com and wherever you get your podcast. Please subscribe and I would love to get any comments or suggestions of what you might want me to take on. For now, stay safe, eat your fruits and vegetables, and we will see you next time.
